Ford Escape Automobiles Forum banner

2005 Escape Hybrid CVT Slipping

23K views 25 replies 8 participants last post by  dawey1 
#1 ·
I just replaced the CVT in my 05 Escape Hybrid because at 40 MPH, it would start to slip. This is my first hybrid vehicle and I am not overly experienced with CVT transmissions. However, based on my mechanical knowledge, it seems like a bad automatic trans (similar to a slipping clutch in a manual). So I ordered a used CVT trans and replaced it this weekend. However, the slipping is still there. Exactly the same as it was before the trans replacement. So I have to assume that it is not the trans. Where do I go from here?

When I had the engine and trans out, I separated the two and noticed what looked like a clutch on the flywheel. I expected to see a torque converter (again thinking the CVT was more like an automatic trans) instead of a clutch. However, unlike a manual, this "clutch" did not have a traditional pressure plate and throwout bearing. I am thinking that my problem may lie somewhere in this mechanism, but I can't find any info on this anywhere. I have been unable to find any diagrams or photos that match what I saw when I had it apart.

My theory at this point is that it is slipping all the time, I just don't notice it as much as lower speeds because the electric motors are doing most of the work. With the electric motors being inside the CVT trans unit, this "clutch" does not come into play. It's only at higher speeds when the vehicle is counting on power form the 2.3L engine that I noticed the slipping as the torque form the motor is lost in transfer to the CVT trans by the slipping clutch. Again, this is just my current theory. If I continue to try to accelerate while it is slipping, the "Stop Safely Now" message comes on and the vehicle loses all power. I hope this all makes sense, but please let me know if I can provide any more details that may help.

I am new to this forum and I am not sure how to post pictures yet. I have a photo of the flywheel/clutch on my website at

http://images.primecommunicationsllc.co ... Clutch.JPG

If anyone has any ideas, or can tell me what Ford calls this part, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Ryan
603.455.6547
 
See less See more
#2 ·
How long have you had the Escape? The eCVT in the FEH is very different from a regular automatic. There is just one planetary gear with the motors on the different parts to vary its effective gear ratio. This site explains the Prius' transmission, but they are the same concept. Basically, it feeling like its slipping is normal. ATVs, snowmobiles, scooters, and other vehicles with a CVT behave the same way.
Unless this issue just started to happen after owning it for a while, I think its just the way it works. If you're convinced its a problem, a video showing the tachometer and speedometer would be helpful for us to see if its doing something abnormal.

I'm not sure what is in your picture. I've heard of the Hybrid having a clutch, but I've never seen any hard evidence/documentation. It would explain why it can be towed wheels on the ground at high speed in N, where the Prius can't.
 
#3 ·
I just bought it, however the "Stop Safely Now" tells me that it's not just the way it works. I also have a Honda Silverwing scooter, and I have driven the Nissan Murano, so I am familiar with the way a CVT feels, and this is not normal. I have NO acceleration over 40 MPH or so and the engine is revving. There is definitely something slipping; I just don't know if it might be the clutch or not. I can try to post a video tomorrow if you think it will help.

Thanks.
Ryan

 
#4 ·
How much assist does the little gauge show under and over 40MPH? Try to include it in the video if you do one. It kind of sounds like something could be wrong with your engine, causing it to have to rev more to provide enough power. I know I've experienced somewhat the opposite problem, completely gutless off the line but ok at speed, when the battery pack was too hot for it to provide assist. Never heard of this, though.
Repairs shouldn't cost too much since you're able to do them, its just the issue of finding the problem.
 
#5 ·
OK. Here are a couple of videos. In video 1, I am accelerating from a stop as I normally would. I never let off the accelerator. When the RPMs drops, it felt like it was trying to "shift" like an automatic would. I kept steady even pressure on the accelerator until the "Stop Safely Now" message appeared.



Thanks.
Ryan
 
#7 ·
Fuzzy317 said:
OK. Here are a couple of videos. In video 1, I am accelerating from a stop as I normally would. I never let off the accelerator. When the RPMs drops, it felt like it was trying to "shift" like an automatic would. I kept steady even pressure on the accelerator until the "Stop Safely Now" message appeared.

In video 2, I pulled off to the side of the road after video 1, shut off the ignition, restarted it, and accelerated with the accelerator pedal pressed all the way to the floor. Again, I did NOT let off the accelerator where you see the RPMs drop and again it felt like it was trying to "shift". Let me know if you have any ideas please.

Thanks.
Ryan
The clutch shown is the one-way clutch designed to prevent the engine from turning backwards. Doubt it is the problem but I guess it is possible. If you got the STOP SAFELY NOW message then you have or had DTCs. Have you scanned for codes? If the codes are not emission related, it will take a high level scanner or a scangauge to retrieve the codes.

Just blind guessing it seems like it could be fuel pump, plugged cat or even the MECS pump. Codes should tell the story.
 
#8 ·
cobrajet_carl said:
If you got the STOP SAFELY NOW message then you have or had DTCs. Have you scanned for codes? If the codes are not emission related, it will take a high level scanner or a scangauge to retrieve the codes.
I think scanning for codes might be my best bet before tearing this apart again. Can you tell me some scanners that would read these codes? I have an SCT programmer for my F350 Diesel. Any chance that would read it?

cobrajet_carl said:
Just blind guessing it seems like it could be fuel pump, plugged cat or even the MECS pump. Codes should tell the story.
What is the MECS pump?
 
#10 ·
Scangauge II would be the best scanner for the Escape Hybrid. You can use it during everyday driving with custom programmed gauges called X-gauges that let you see what's going on with the hybrid stuff, like temperatures, how many amps charging/discharging, etc. You should be able to read the codes with just about any scanner, though.

The MECS pump is the pump that cools the electrical parts of the hybrid system. I doubt its causing this issue. It looks more like something is wrong with the gas side.
 
#11 ·
Fuzzy317 said:
cobrajet_carl said:
If you got the STOP SAFELY NOW message then you have or had DTCs. Have you scanned for codes? If the codes are not emission related, it will take a high level scanner or a scangauge to retrieve the codes.
I think scanning for codes might be my best bet before tearing this apart again. Can you tell me some scanners that would read these codes? I have an SCT programmer for my F350 Diesel. Any chance that would read it?

cobrajet_carl said:
Just blind guessing it seems like it could be fuel pump, plugged cat or even the MECS pump. Codes should tell the story.
What is the MECS pump?
If the SCT programmer reads DTCs, I would think it would work if it can connect to a CAN bus system but I don't know for sure. Can't hurt to connect it up to see.

It sure sounds like a fuel pump or plugged cat to me, but there are certainly other possibilities. The Motor Electronics Cooling System pump will sometimes but not always also display HIGH MOTOR TEMP in addition to the STOP SAFELY NOW. Get those codes!
 
#12 ·
Okay. So I was able to read the following codes with my SCT tuner.

P0685 - Electronic Control Module Power Relay Control Circuit Malfunction
P1A0C - Hybrid Powertrain Control Module Engine Disabled
P1A14 - Hybrid Powertrain Control Module Transmission Disabled
P0A0A - High Voltage System Interlock Circuit
P0562 - System Voltage Low

I cleared the codes and drove it again. The first code to come back on after recreating the "Stop Safely Now" condition was P1A0C.

Thoughts?
 
#15 ·
Fuzzy317 said:
Okay. So I was able to read the following codes with my SCT tuner.

P0685 - Electronic Control Module Power Relay Control Circuit Malfunction
P1A0C - Hybrid Powertrain Control Module Engine Disabled
P1A14 - Hybrid Powertrain Control Module Transmission Disabled
P0A0A - High Voltage System Interlock Circuit
P0562 - System Voltage Low

I cleared the codes and drove it again. The first code to come back on after recreating the "Stop Safely Now" condition was P1A0C.

Thoughts?
Based on these DTCs I would agree that it is highly likely that the 12V battery and/or power sustain relays are the problem. Less likely would be the IFS switches or fuel pump/fuel pump driver module.
 
#16 ·
Replaced 12V Battery
Replaced PCM Power Relay
Replaced Power Sustain Relay
Verified that the MECS Pump is working.

Still doing the same thing.
When the "Stop Safely Now" message comes on, I have almost no power. You can tell that the electric motors are still trying to move the vehicle, but very slowly. Is this normal? I would think that it would be unsafe for the vehicle to lose almost all power and expect you to make it safely to the side of the road. It seems to be a little better if I let it sit for a few minutes. Is it possible that the HV Battery Pack could be bad causing this?

Also, if I take it for a short drive, then park it and leave it running, I will occasionally hear a grinding sound for a second or two. The best way I can describe this is that it sounds like someone throwing an automatic trans into park while the car is still rolling to a stop. I am not sure if I can get an audio recording of this or not as there is a lot of other noise under the hood with the engine running, but I will try. It sounds as though it is coming from the CVT. Any ideas what that may be?
 
#18 ·
Fuzzy317 said:
Replaced 12V Battery
Replaced PCM Power Relay
Replaced Power Sustain Relay
Verified that the MECS Pump is working.

Still doing the same thing.
When the "Stop Safely Now" message comes on, I have almost no power. You can tell that the electric motors are still trying to move the vehicle, but very slowly. Is this normal? I would think that it would be unsafe for the vehicle to lose almost all power and expect you to make it safely to the side of the road. It seems to be a little better if I let it sit for a few minutes. Is it possible that the HV Battery Pack could be bad causing this?

Also, if I take it for a short drive, then park it and leave it running, I will occasionally hear a grinding sound for a second or two. The best way I can describe this is that it sounds like someone throwing an automatic trans into park while the car is still rolling to a stop. I am not sure if I can get an audio recording of this or not as there is a lot of other noise under the hood with the engine running, but I will try. It sounds as though it is coming from the CVT. Any ideas what that may be?
Wow, I really thought the 12V battery and the relays were the culprit. From what you describe, the vehicle is going into an LOS (limited operating strategy) with regards to the engine. What DTCs do you read now? I assume the power related ones went away. There is an LOS for one-way clutch failure but I still can't believe that that is the issue. I would try to find out what LOS is being invoked when you get the loss of power and eventual SSN.

It seems more likely that the issue is with the fuel pump or a plugged cat/exhaust or perhaps the PCM or TCM is corrupt. But since you swapped transaxles with no apparent change, I would tend to rule out anything transaxle related. A bad fuel pump can damage the rear IFS switch which can cause the P0A0A interlock code. A bad cat will usually throw a P0420 code but sometimes they can be severely restriced but still functioning well enough that the secondary O2 sensor doesn't switch.
 
#19 ·
A one-way, or sprag clutch can make some bad noises on the way out. I would definitely consider that as the source of the noise, and also the lack of power.
The clutch allows the transmission input shaft to spin freely when in electric mode even though the crankshaft is not turning. Once the crankshaft starts turning, then if its rpm is greater than the electric, it will start to link or grab the input shaft of the transmission, and give it power.
Think of a sprag clutch as a ratchet wrench, except bigger and smoother. It will apply power when turned one way, but will allow its output, the socket, to turn even when the wrench is held still. The sprag operates by having a row of little arms that are tilted and held in place by springs. When the clutch 'over-runs', they let it go. When the clutch stops over-running, the little arms, or sprags, kind of stand up and get jammed between the inner and outer rings of the clutch. Once jammed, they hold tightly until they are over-run or twisted in the opposite direction.
A failing sprag will grab and let go, and grab when it should not, and NOT grab when it should. I'd bet they make nasty noises when dying also.
What's the price on a new/used one?
As noted previously, there's little to no knowledge in the factory shop manual. Maybe you have to take it to Nissan for service? {Toyota? Honda? Mazda? ???}

tom
 
#20 ·
UPDATE

I have finally found the cause of the problem. The manifold catalytic converter was plugged. I removed the Pre-Cat O2 sensor and the condition improved. I was able the get up to about 60 MPH and the SSN never came on. I reinstalled the Pre-Cat O2 and removed the Post-Cat O2 and ran it again. This time I got the same as the original symptoms and the exhaust wasn't even loud. There was little to nothing getting through the cat. I removed the manifold and cleaned it out and it ran great.

Unfortunately, on my test drive with the pre-cat O2 sensor removed, I melted the vacuum canister that's bolted to the firewall so I now need to replace that. I also discovered that I have a spun connecting rod bearing on the number 2 connecting rod. I have the lower end torn apart waiting for bearings on Tuesday morning. Hopefully the crank will be OK and I can just throw the bearings in and be good to go.

I will keep you all posted. Thank you for all of your input. AND, if anyone needs a CVT Transmission, let me know.
 
#22 ·
Bearings in and the engine seems to be running fine. However I still have the strange clicking/grinding noise coming from the CVT occasionally. It only happens with the engine running and seems to only happen at idle or low speeds. Today, it happened several times when I shut the engine off. It seems as though it may be getting worse. I will try to get an audio recording as it is a tough sound to describe. Any thoughts?
 
#24 ·
Eureka! The strange noise is coming from the AC Compressor. It's amazing how it can resonate through the rest of the car. I can physically feel it in the transmission pan, but as you can see in the video below, it is coming from the AC Compressor.



Thanks again to everyone who has helped me through this.
 
#25 ·
@fuzzy317

We had exactly the same problem here. eCVT replaced, many diagnosing hours on our dyno... no result, until i saw this topic!!

Manifold catalytic converter was fine here, but second catalytic converter was plugged. After making it empty the problems were solved!! :wave:

We now replaced the second catalytic converter for a new one and it's just running fine now.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top